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	<title>Comments on: JavaOne day three: AO&#8230;P!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=javaone-day-three-aop</link>
	<description>If you have nothing bad to say, say nothing.</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3212</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3212</guid>
		<description>re: &quot;Aspects need to know an awful lot about what they&#039;re aspecting&quot; - This is absolutely true.  The design question is whether you can use aspects to arrange dependencies in a way to reduce coupling and maintenance.  If using aspects means you go one place to fix a problem, great.  If it means having to fixup all your aspects when you modify the system, terrible.  Unsurprisingly, the design principles are straight OO, but the new techniques mean some code that had to be nasty doesn&#039;t any more.  Interestingly, the whole community will revisit exactly these issues when figuring out how to use annotations.  (I predict many who want to use annotations for more than point deployments might end up wanting pointcuts.) See http://aosd.net/2004/tutorials/goodaop.php for the design issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: &#8220;Aspects need to know an awful lot about what they&#8217;re aspecting&#8221; &#8211; This is absolutely true.  The design question is whether you can use aspects to arrange dependencies in a way to reduce coupling and maintenance.  If using aspects means you go one place to fix a problem, great.  If it means having to fixup all your aspects when you modify the system, terrible.  Unsurprisingly, the design principles are straight OO, but the new techniques mean some code that had to be nasty doesn&#8217;t any more.  Interestingly, the whole community will revisit exactly these issues when figuring out how to use annotations.  (I predict many who want to use annotations for more than point deployments might end up wanting pointcuts.) See <a href="http://aosd.net/2004/tutorials/goodaop.php" rel="nofollow">http://aosd.net/2004/tutorials/goodaop.php</a> for the design issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Bastard</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3211</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Bastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3211</guid>
		<description>&quot;I went the the TB...&quot;
BTW, I don&#039;t think you were there either. I was dressed as a clown, and nobody, I repeat nobody, punched me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I went the the TB&#8230;&#8221;<br />
BTW, I don&#8217;t think you were there either. I was dressed as a clown, and nobody, I repeat nobody, punched me.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Bastard</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3210</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Bastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3210</guid>
		<description>&quot;And there wasn&#039;t a single LuftHani uniform to be seen.&quot;
That&#039;s what I&#039;ve been saying. Hani just isn&#039;t here. He&#039;s blogging away from Jordan, pretending to be here.
Sold any motorcycles lately on eBay, Hani?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And there wasn&#8217;t a single LuftHani uniform to be seen.&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been saying. Hani just isn&#8217;t here. He&#8217;s blogging away from Jordan, pretending to be here.<br />
Sold any motorcycles lately on eBay, Hani?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3209</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3209</guid>
		<description>I too saw the panel at TSSS and I agree, the immature ruined it for the rest of the panel, and we the audience suffered for it. However, I think you are missing the boat with AOP. Nobody is claiming that it is easy and that you don&#039;t have to have half a brain to do it.

All the AOP crowd are saying is that there is this class of problems, that can often be identified by the fact that the code for the solution is or could be in every freakin&#039; class in existance (or more then a few anyways). And here is this other way to implement the solution that is easier to maintain. A hard problem is still hard, but when you figure out a better solution to your hard problem it is easier to get the changes everywhere.

As to your comment about &quot;aspects need to know an awful lot about what they&#039;re aspecting, and collaborate fairly closely with the targets.&quot; I say yes and no.

I think you are making the mistake of thinking that the code that says where an aspect applies is part of the aspect. In my opinion, it isn&#039;t. Many (dare I say most) aspects should be able to be written in a general manner. Then the person using the aspect, who has more then a passing familiarity with the code the aspects are being applied to I hope, would write the binding bit.

At the same time, I am sure there will be many very specialized aspects developed (not just six like there is in AO) that need to know a lot about what they are aspecting. And a whole host of others that will be poorly written and proped up by needing more info about the code they are aspecting then should be required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too saw the panel at TSSS and I agree, the immature ruined it for the rest of the panel, and we the audience suffered for it. However, I think you are missing the boat with AOP. Nobody is claiming that it is easy and that you don&#8217;t have to have half a brain to do it.</p>
<p>All the AOP crowd are saying is that there is this class of problems, that can often be identified by the fact that the code for the solution is or could be in every freakin&#8217; class in existance (or more then a few anyways). And here is this other way to implement the solution that is easier to maintain. A hard problem is still hard, but when you figure out a better solution to your hard problem it is easier to get the changes everywhere.</p>
<p>As to your comment about &#8220;aspects need to know an awful lot about what they&#8217;re aspecting, and collaborate fairly closely with the targets.&#8221; I say yes and no.</p>
<p>I think you are making the mistake of thinking that the code that says where an aspect applies is part of the aspect. In my opinion, it isn&#8217;t. Many (dare I say most) aspects should be able to be written in a general manner. Then the person using the aspect, who has more then a passing familiarity with the code the aspects are being applied to I hope, would write the binding bit.</p>
<p>At the same time, I am sure there will be many very specialized aspects developed (not just six like there is in AO) that need to know a lot about what they are aspecting. And a whole host of others that will be poorly written and proped up by needing more info about the code they are aspecting then should be required.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3208</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3208</guid>
		<description>Hani can you bile a litle about how most of the sessions are turning into an incoherent ramblings of JSR numbers!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hani can you bile a litle about how most of the sessions are turning into an incoherent ramblings of JSR numbers!!</p>
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		<title>By: Clown Puncher</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3207</link>
		<dc:creator>Clown Puncher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3207</guid>
		<description>Not the one with the Russian accent, Cameron.

I am talking about the other one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the one with the Russian accent, Cameron.</p>
<p>I am talking about the other one.</p>
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		<title>By: Cameron</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3206</link>
		<dc:creator>Cameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3206</guid>
		<description>I asked the hostess if she were hot. She didn&#039;t seem to understand. I&#039;ll give her the URL to the bile blog so she can respond directly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I asked the hostess if she were hot. She didn&#8217;t seem to understand. I&#8217;ll give her the URL to the bile blog so she can respond directly.</p>
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		<title>By: Clown Puncher</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3205</link>
		<dc:creator>Clown Puncher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3205</guid>
		<description>BileOne???

I went the the TB, like Cameron suggested, and all I saw was that upper-lipless jackass Russell Beatoff  wearing a sweater around his waste like some ivy-league wanna-be hanging out with a bunch of miscreants wearing &quot;Mobile Geeks Rule&quot; t-shirts.

And there wasn&#039;t a single LuftHani uniform to be seen.

WTF? Was I too early? Perhaps I should head back out.

And is it me, or is that one Hostess smoking hot?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BileOne???</p>
<p>I went the the TB, like Cameron suggested, and all I saw was that upper-lipless jackass Russell Beatoff  wearing a sweater around his waste like some ivy-league wanna-be hanging out with a bunch of miscreants wearing &#8220;Mobile Geeks Rule&#8221; t-shirts.</p>
<p>And there wasn&#8217;t a single LuftHani uniform to be seen.</p>
<p>WTF? Was I too early? Perhaps I should head back out.</p>
<p>And is it me, or is that one Hostess smoking hot?</p>
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		<title>By: van</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3204</link>
		<dc:creator>van</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3204</guid>
		<description>&gt;You still need to be a skilled and competent designer to nail down what aspects you need, how to write them, when to apply them, and when not to.

Damn you. If you don&#039;t need to, what does programming mean?

Oh, I see.... they pulled the P away from AOP so you think AOP does not need such thing at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>You still need to be a skilled and competent designer to nail down what aspects you need, how to write them, when to apply them, and when not to.</p>
<p>Damn you. If you don&#8217;t need to, what does programming mean?</p>
<p>Oh, I see&#8230;. they pulled the P away from AOP so you think AOP does not need such thing at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Palani</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3203</link>
		<dc:creator>Palani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3203</guid>
		<description>I read about AOP like 3 or 4 times and it really looks complicated (unless I am missing something). 

Hope somebody comes with an alternative to AOP for the problem whatever this is trying to solve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read about AOP like 3 or 4 times and it really looks complicated (unless I am missing something). </p>
<p>Hope somebody comes with an alternative to AOP for the problem whatever this is trying to solve.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3202</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3202</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Re: I think Gosling should get a real job. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;
I think you should get a real job. And your mom too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Re: I think Gosling should get a real job. </i><br />
I think you should get a real job. And your mom too.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Bastard</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3201</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Bastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3201</guid>
		<description>I think Gosling should get a real job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Gosling should get a real job.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fx</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3200</link>
		<dc:creator>fx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3200</guid>
		<description>AO is different from AOP, just like A is different from O. Ask the A-Team for competent advice regarding this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AO is different from AOP, just like A is different from O. Ask the A-Team for competent advice regarding this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Fruitcake</title>
		<link>http://www.bileblog.org/2004/06/javaone-day-three-aop/comment-page-1/#comment-3199</link>
		<dc:creator>Fruitcake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bileblog.org/?p=127#comment-3199</guid>
		<description>Apple and Oranges, so that&#039;s what AO stands for!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple and Oranges, so that&#8217;s what AO stands for!!!</p>
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