Increase your girth by JSR submission!
I cannot believe that that toy, groovy, is now a JCP submission. I am astounded at the gall of these people. Have they no shame? Exactly how low will they sink to beg for ego stroking?
Where does one start? How about the proposed package name, ‘groovy.*’? Whimsy has its place, it’s known as perl and other such hacky toys. Leave java to the professionals. If you thoughtworks assholes have shitty boring jobs where you’re forced to code in java, don’t foist your crap onto the rest of us. Go be perl, ruby, or python monkeys or something suitably hacky that is more egofondlefriendly.
Next let’s look at the geniuses behind this endeavour. According to the submission, the group members are experienced participants and managers, with well-known projects such as velocity, dom4j, classwords, maven, jelly, jexl. Basically, a list of retarded ideas that have that whiff of circlejerk that only codehaus can bestow. velocity and dom4j are decent, to be fair. The rest though isn’t even a bad joke, it’s a joke in very very bad taste. It’s almost as if they’re taunting the users with this JCP. ‘Our genitalia is so big that we can mention this shit and STILL be applauded for it, screw you all!’. It does make one wonder whether the whole exercise is to see if anyone is awake. A pre-April’s fool day gag gone horribly wrong.
Let’s look at the other luminaries who support this travesty shall we? We have Bob McWhirter (codehaus lead masturbator), Jon Tirsen (incoherent immature loudmouth), hardcore groovy hackers (gosh, they suppport it? Astounding), Geir Magnusson Jr (nice guy, velocity guy, apache minion), and ThoughtWorks (obnoxious pretentious gits). Put together, this bunch of misfits are responsible for a surprisingly huge number of truly horrific ideas. All they need is the Midas touch of Craig Mcflafla to have that ultimate java winning team.
Now, I have nothing against people wanting to use java as a scripting language, I will even concede that such a thing has potentially useful applications. However, I fail to see why of ALL the choices available currently, groovy is the one that gets a JCP spec. It is by far the least tested, least used, most immature of all the various offerings out there. The only reason it’s in the JCP is the desire of its authors to be applauded and get acclaim for their new toy, and its flavour of the month accolade.
What next, really? What’s to stop everyone from trying to JCP their own little pet projects? Hell, I’ll submit the bileblog as a JSR! It can have a spec, and perhaps a TCK to ensure content is on-topic and relevant! It’ll improve the quality of rants and standardise them!
If the groovy kids were so keen on their toy, why not just do everything you want to do for it outside of the JCP? There’s nothing stopping you from writing a formal language spec for it, making sure you have a test suite, and all that crap. Why must you sully the JCP with it, if not for personal gain? Why use such underhanded methods to leapfrog beanshell, ognl, pnuts, and a host of other players in your domain? If it truly is the one scripting language to rule them all, let the users decide by adopting it and making it a de-facto standard.
So, please, I beg of you all, stop this insanity. Someone please let me know who to email at the JCP to object to this JSR. I urge you all in the strongest possible terms to put an end to it and let it die the miserable death it so richly deserves. Of course, there’s a slim chance of this happening, given that both spec leads just happen to be on the executive committee, so I’m sure they doesn’t have a biased opinion. Grrrr.
March 16th, 2004 at 4:24 pm
Let us know when JBileBlog reaches JCP. Are you going to have reps from all sorts of bodies like Oracle, BEA, JBoss, Maven, CDN on the committee ? Just wondered :-)
March 16th, 2004 at 4:24 pm
Pat Niemeyer is from my town of St. Louis. He gave us a talk about BeanShell at the Gateway JUG a few months back. I found the talk interesting, but I haven’t found any reason to use BeanShell for anything I’ve been doing.
I think you may have just inspired me to pick up BeanShell and start using it for stuff out of spite. Seriously, what the hell kinda name is “Groovy” anyway? I thought “groovy”, as an adjective, went out of style in the 60′s or 70′s.
March 16th, 2004 at 4:46 pm
Software Development‘s 2003 Salary Survey seems to side with the “python monkey”, and perhaps with the future Groovy monkey.
Not a convincing argument in any case, but interesting to note.
March 16th, 2004 at 4:50 pm
AWESOME BILE,
and well deserved.. of course probably the only reason for doing all this is to get more publicity for their lil toy – and they succeeded. It is simple , really.
The best part these imbeciles pulled was how they completely dismissed JSR 223 – “we want our own toys, we don’t want to play with yours!”. Bunch of kiddies.
March 16th, 2004 at 5:20 pm
The idea of another language as a JSR seems odd, but creating a scripting framework with PHP as the first example seems an odd choice too.
Making the assumption that the JCP is not just for Sun to foiston us their wonderful: “Build a Spec, get Vendors to implement variants” marketing scheme, then where better could a language ask to be standardised?
People complained that C# was not standardised, and that Java was pulled back from standarisation to create their own personal standardisation board. Should Groovy be approaching IEEE or ECMA to standardise Groovy? Why isn’t the JCP good enough if it was good enough for Java.
At first I thought it was a daft move. Now I think it makes sense and I want to know why I should use non-standardised languages like BSH and others.
March 16th, 2004 at 5:28 pm
Used BeanShell to script a workflow engine (servlets).
Quite nice.
March 16th, 2004 at 5:30 pm
Hey look at the AWESOME BILE Hani Sycophants wet their little trousers at this stodgy attempt at reasonable criticism!!! These crying little babies simply lover every drop of jism that comes out the end of Hani’s knob. But lately, it seems the viagra is failing Hani and hes gone all limp with reasoned arguments as he moves to protect his ‘reputation’ as a TSS top-poster rather than flaying the powers-that-be alive. SKIN THEM ALIVE IN FRONT OF THEIR CHILDREN OR KILL ME!!!
March 16th, 2004 at 5:53 pm
Once, when I was walking down the street, I met with a man with a blue smile who said not hi as we passed by. That got me thinking to myself as we drifted further apart: how a line may connect us still as we move but that we failed to say good bye.
March 16th, 2004 at 5:58 pm
As one of the asshats that helped submit the JSR as well as plan to help on the expert group, I’d like to respond.
JSR 223 is “Scripting Pages in Java Web Applications”, which is a bridge to external scripting environments. Groovy is just another language that compiles down to bytecode and runs on the same JVM, which is different.
I’m interested in this JSR for two reasons.
First, I’d like to see other languages run on the JVM. There’s no reason that Java has to be the only language (although it does make all the marketing of the ecosystem need revision – I guess we’d have to call it “JVM Virtual Machine” and “JVM2 Enterprise Edition”).
Second, I’d like to see more OSS projects use the JCP for standardization, and bring the successful methods of OSS development to the JCP. The only way that is going to happen is by someone actually doing it. An OSS licensed RI and TCK hasn’t been done yet from the ground up, and I think that is an important milestone the Java community needs to achieve.
So, thanks for not flaming me too badly (I was lamenting that for my first bile, the worst I got was ‘misfit’) and thanks for the blog. I really enjoy reading it…
March 16th, 2004 at 6:09 pm
You don’t know me.
Do you ever wake up in the morning thinking, “Joseph B. Ottinger’s newsgroup postings have earned him opprobrium, suspicion, resentment, and hatred?” Well, so do I. One of my objectives is to champion the force of goodness against the greed of what I call psychotic Philistines.
His snow jobs are geared toward the continuation of social stratification under the rubric of “tradition”. Funny, that was the same term that Joseph’s hirelings once used to discredit and intimidate the opposition. His orations have proven to be a complete disaster in both theory and practice. In that context, one could say that whenever anyone states the obvious — that his ability to use mass organization as a system of integration and control is astounding — discussion naturally progresses towards the question, “Why doesn’t he point a critical finger at himself for a change?” Before you answer, let me point out that if we’re to effectively carry out our responsibilities and make a future for ourselves, we will first have to invite all the people who have been harmed by Joseph to continue to express and assert their concerns in a constructive and productive fashion. Be honest; can you in any way believe his claim that elitism is a be-all, end-all system that should be forcefully imposed upon us? I cannot, mainly because he is an inspiration to ornery knuckleheads everywhere. They panegyrize Joseph’s crusade to mortgage away our future and, more importantly, they don’t realize that we live in a deeply troubled society. So let Joseph call me devious. I call him antihumanist.
I don’t like to repeat myself, but given the amount of misinformation that he is circulating, I must point out that I have one itsy-bitsy problem with his warnings. Videlicet, they bamboozle people into believing that his wisecracks are not worth getting outraged about. And that’s saying nothing about how his brethren must be exposed and neutralized wherever they lurk, and everyone with half a brain understands that. Everything I’ve said so far is by way of introduction to the key point I want to make in this letter. My key point is that when I was younger, I wanted to build a world overflowing with compassion and tolerance. I still want to do that, but now I realize that I certainly dislike him. Likes or dislikes, however, are irrelevant to observed facts, such as that Joseph is a mythmaker, an illusion builder, or to put it less politely, a trickster. His minions probably don’t realize that, because it’s not mentioned in the funny papers or in the movies. Nevertheless, Joseph is utterly mistaken if he believes that every featherless biped, regardless of intelligence, personal achievement, moral character, sense of responsibility, or sanity, should be given the power to hurt people’s feelings. If Joseph would abandon his name-calling and false dichotomies, it would be much easier for me to arraign Joseph at the tribunal of public opinion. Don’t get me wrong; when all discoverable facts and experience fly in the face of his tactless world view, he stubbornly holds onto his ignorance as his birthright. But he will stop at nothing to redefine unbridled self-indulgence as a virtue, as the ultimate test of personal freedom. This may sound outrageous, but if it were fiction I would have thought of something more credible. As it stands, when I first became aware of Joseph’s covert invasion into our thought processes, all I could think was how we should agree on definitions before saying anything further about Joseph’s incorrigible deeds. For starters, let’s say that “sexism” is “that which makes Joseph yearn to trivialize the issue.” Thus, in summing up, we can establish the following: 1) I would have expected Joseph B. Ottinger to at least listen to my side of the story, and 2) he favors the idea of a country based on perquisites and privileges.
You don’t know me.
March 16th, 2004 at 6:11 pm
so what’s your fucking point? you certainly don’t sound like an idealist, so what is the fucking problem? don’t tell me you’ve ‘just’ realized that this is the way LIFE works you shit head! Its all about self-promotion and elbowing your way to the greasy table top. You dork!
March 16th, 2004 at 6:12 pm
I heard that!
March 16th, 2004 at 6:48 pm
Yea, Joseph B. Ottinger is not a nice person… some variation of Andrew C. Oliver but more vicious …
March 16th, 2004 at 7:05 pm
Dammit Hani! Do we have to submit a JSR to get PicoContainer biled?!
March 16th, 2004 at 7:07 pm
no jon. just change the name to pissy container (or prissy container).
March 16th, 2004 at 7:08 pm
who wrote this jroller piece of shite?
March 16th, 2004 at 7:52 pm
SISSY Container.
March 16th, 2004 at 8:14 pm
i am so tired of hearing the word “Groovy” it makes my head spin. i think we need a JCP for every one of the
languages that could run on a JVM.
March 17th, 2004 at 1:00 am
Good bile Hani, I guess Groovy must really be on the map now.
Though damn, I didn’t get biled – why do Bob, Jon & Geir get all the fun? :)
Just a minor correction – Anonymous said…
“The best part these imbeciles pulled was how they completely dismissed JSR 223″
Actually I’m on JSR 223 and Groovy will fully implement it. JSR 223 is a standard API for plugging in scripting languages to web containers. It doesn’t define a scripting language itself so JSRs 223 and 241 work together.
March 17th, 2004 at 3:16 am
Yeah, James, especially since my name is not even on the JSR yet and yours is. Where did you get the information I’m going to be on the expert group? I mean I’m not the only ThoughtWorker that’s a Groovy fan.
March 17th, 2004 at 5:01 am
“First, I’d like to see other languages run on the JVM.”
There are plenty languages already running on the JVM. This JSR has nothing to do with it.
“Second, I’d like to see more OSS projects use the JCP for standardization”
Then pick a project that has already matured and people are actually using, and standardize it. Surely you can find projects like that from the Java OSS community? Surely there’s no need to standardize something that barely anyone is using, and has barely gotten out of its baby cradle (if that).
March 17th, 2004 at 8:29 am
At the very least change the name. How many of us really want to list something called Groovy on our CVs? And think of all those people who love to slag off Java to management. I can hear them sniggering already. Why not just hand them a lump of shit and say, “Please smear this on my face and then run away laughing.”
March 17th, 2004 at 8:36 am
“Please smear this shit on my face and then run away laughing.”
Groooooovvy, baby!
baby?
March 17th, 2004 at 10:03 am
Formal language spec? Java never had a formal spec and nobody cared. When it was released, the Java spec was so vague that nobody noticed that it contained errors.
If developers cared about formal language spec’s we’d all be writing in Scheme. Which would be … err… good. Yeah… I see what you mean …
March 17th, 2004 at 11:01 am
What is in a name? Would a rose smell just as sweet if were named “shit”?
Anyway, “Java” started the whimsical naming practice, by naming a language after a coffee-growing island and using a cup of coffee as its logo.
Back in the old days, we used acronyms for our whimsical names: SNOBOL and AWK for example.
March 17th, 2004 at 11:13 am
Joseph B. Ottinger has mental problems.He needs to get laid.
March 17th, 2004 at 11:31 am
Java started as Oak.
March 17th, 2004 at 11:43 am
It has to be said, the name Groovy does lack a certain gravitas. Whether that matters to you or not probably depends to a large extent on your background as a programmer and the kind of culture which you’re used to working in.
March 17th, 2004 at 1:55 pm
We all know that open source is merely a stimulus for code masturbation. So what if they standardize one – it just means they all wanna jerk off together to the same thing. All’s fair in love, war and masturbation.
March 17th, 2004 at 8:26 pm
Having a JSR doesn’t mean anything…there are a ton of JSR’s that are dead in the water and have been for a long time(jdom, etc.).
This will all blow over, and deservedly so.
March 17th, 2004 at 11:46 pm
zionist ‘journalism’ at its examplary best:
item: Same article is ‘modified’ for Europeans who (apparently and God bless ‘em :) are sick and tired of a certain nation, and who, after all, are still capable of a measure of independent thinking and ain’t brainwashed like the poor (_pitiful_) americans:
Here (for the European version of this zionist bile) the title is : “One Year later: Imposing ‘univeral values’”:
http://www.iht.com/articles/510711.html
And in this corner for the American audiance the title is “Killing Iraq with Kindness”
http://www.iht.com/articles/510711.html
“Kindess” :)))
Of course we can certainly sympathize with the jew editors of IHT (NewYorkTimes + WashingtonPost) that the “kindess” part would make Pierre choke on his morning cafe …
March 17th, 2004 at 11:48 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/opinion/17BURU.html
“oops! I did it again”
March 18th, 2004 at 12:03 am
Now, be a good techie and do a diff on the actual text of the same bile.
Note that the clever editors have tried to make this somewhat hard by changing the paragraph structure — make sure your code ignores all white space.
March 18th, 2004 at 12:22 am
Carefully tailored propaganda — to each his own :))
US: “our troops are not there to impose American values or even
Western values”
EU: “U.S. troops are not there to impose American values or even
Western values”
–
US: “propping up “our” dictators in the name of realpolitik”
EU: “propping up dictators in the name of realpolitik”
–
US: “the native soul, especially in Germany, turned sour and became
antiliberal and anti-Semitic.”
EU: “the native soul, especially in Germany, turned sour and became
anti-liberal, anti-cosmopolitan, and anti-Semitic.”
–
US: “Yet to many Arab Muslims inside and outside Iraq, this does indeed look
like a war unleashed by “Zionists and Crusaders” to keep the Muslims down, or
worse, impose a foreign civilization on an Arab nation.”
EU: “Yet to many Arab Muslims inside and outside Iraq, this does indeed look
like a war unleashed by “Zionists and Crusaders” to keep the Muslims down, or
worse, impose a foreign civilization on an Arab nation. This is certainly the
way Islamist extemists see it. But then, they always were believers in Mr.
Huntington’s thesis.“
–
US: “There seems to be little doubt that most Iraqis were more than happy to
see Saddam go.”
EU: “There seems to be little doubt that most Iraqis were more than happy to
see Saddam Hussein go.”
note that the pattern of calling Saddam Hussein — a CIA asset since
1950′s BTW — as “Saddam” is apparently a dictated policy of the
“cosmopolitan” censorship, er, editorial cabal running US news apparatus.
Americans are like little children — they need to be on first name basis with
the little monster under the bed.
This has been a public service bile.
March 18th, 2004 at 2:15 am
ya
March 18th, 2004 at 4:02 am
Wow – the first bile I strongly disagree with. I think Groovy is a great idea, and I also think it’s great if it’s going to be standardized within the JCP.
I’m a true BileBlog addict, and it’s strange to see how I feel myself reacting totally differently to a bile that I think is undeserved – actually, it’s also the first one I don’t even find funny.
Still, thanks to Hani for continuing to do this, and looking forward to entries where I have the feeling of being on the same side as the author ;-)
March 18th, 2004 at 9:10 am
Scripting languages are for wankers. Bugger off and use VB if you can’t program. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
March 18th, 2004 at 10:26 am
“Leave java to the professionals. ”
Pleas let me know when this happens.
March 18th, 2004 at 11:48 am
As soon as you turn blue and die, Varda.
March 18th, 2004 at 5:16 pm
With publicity like this, Groovy may win next year’s “JDJ Oscar” for “Best Java Database”.
March 18th, 2004 at 7:48 pm
I’ll keep that in mind, for a java database *and* “best java book,” maybe.
March 19th, 2004 at 8:56 am
“Leave java to the professionals. ”
Also known as people who couldn’t get their head around lisp.
March 20th, 2004 at 12:25 pm
“Joseph B. Ottinger has mental problems.He needs to get laid.”
Agreed… but having sex with him is not something I’d wish on any man, woman or beast.
March 20th, 2004 at 6:14 pm
>> With publicity like this, Groovy may win next
>> year’s “JDJ Oscar” for “Best Java Database”.
This comment is great. I cant judge on the bile but its written good. Geir usually has good ideas, so perhaps groovy is not as bad as its name.
March 22nd, 2004 at 6:39 am
Name one good idea Geir has ever had.
March 23rd, 2004 at 5:49 am
Good move.
So maybe one day we can run C/C++, Visual Basic, etc… directly inside Java without JNI!